akinoame: (Ben/Elena: Pretend)
[personal profile] akinoame
…I liked this episode better when it was called Fullmetal Alchemist. The original, not Brotherhood. Also when it was called Kamen Rider Ryuki.

That said, this review is essentially a preview of my Endpoint Analysis on Ryuki’s Shiro Kanzaki. Enjoy!

The story begins with Gwen returning to Hex’s house to return a book and borrow another. Apparently, she’s been doing this a lot since “Time Heals.” WHY? Hex confronts her, and she reveals she’s trying to rescue Charmcaster, who was left behind in Ledgerdomain back in “Where the Magic Happens.” Interestingly, Hex reacts with grief. This is…interesting. See, he rarely shows that he gives a damn about his niece. Also, he apparently hasn’t wondered why she hasn’t come back from going out to buy milk a few months ago. Well, Dwayne McDuffie said their relationship was complicated—that doesn’t even cover half of it.

So the team has to go into Ledgerdomain using the dialing computer from Stargate SG-1, where they meet the last free Jaffa rock monster, Ignatius, who I kept calling Teal’c. But that’s okay; I also kept calling Kevin “Jack O’Neill” because he’s totally his long-lost kid. Really. Watch a few episodes of SG-1 and then go back and rewatch Kevin. SAME GUY. They manage to rescue a depowered Adwatia, who now sounds like Dr. Drakken, and then they go looking for the usurper to overthrow, who is quite obviously Charmcaster. And then the plot goes into Charmcaster draining the lifeforce of every living thing in Ledgerdomain (well, obviously aside from herself) to resurrect her dad. Also, God apparently exists in Ben 10—he takes the form of a crack in the universe and sounds like Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget. And it takes 600,000 souls to resurrect one.

Wait. I get it now. That is why there are so many rumors of a reboot of Ben 10 and why we have a redesign. You’re doing a new version, featuring Vic Mignogna as Ben, Aaron Dismuke as Kevin, and Caitlin Glass as Gwen, and reimagining Vilgax as a green-haired guy of indeterminate gender. Redesigned Ben is just short.

Everybody who’s ever read or watched any version of Fullmetal Alchemist, say it with me:

“Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. This is alchemy’s First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world’s one, and only, truth.”

Thank you, Alphonse. Now, this horribly Inequivalent Exchange means that Charmcaster kills EVERYBODY—ONSCREEN—to bring back Daddy. Who calls her Hope. Which is a massive letdown. Really? “Hope”? Whatever. Anyway, so Daddycaster is horribly disappointed in Hopecaster and tells her that because she sacrificed 600,000 people to save his life, he’s going to go back to Heaven or wherever and chill with Trisha Elric and Yui Kanzaki (I’m paraphrasing here). Dr. God gives a refund on all 600,000 souls (apparently, there is a money-back guarantee on resurrection), and everybody comes back to life while Charmcaster has no clue where to go. Ben wants a smoothie, and then he, Kevin, and Gwen argue about whether or not they can feel sympathy for Charmcaster.

Yes. This is LONG when I said I was only going to do minireviews from now on. But that’s because I have an analysis I want to get across. The plot I summarized very sarcastically is very similar to the journey of two characters, Edward Elric of Fullmetal Alchemist and Shiro Kanzaki of Kamen Rider Ryuki, two of my favorite series ever.

Let’s start with Ed. As a child, his mother died of a mysterious illness, leaving him and his younger brother Al alone. Instead of doing the sensible thing and moving in with their next-door neighbors and family friends, the Rockbells, Ed and Al designed to find an alchemy teacher and spend the next couple of years learning how to perform the forbidden human transmutation that could bring their mother back. When they finally returned, they did their experiment, only for it to horrifically backfire. Ed lost his leg to the Gate of Truth, and Al disappeared into it entirely, and the creature they brought back wasn’t even human—“pus-spewing organ pile sin against God” was used by VG Cats quite accurately. Regretting what he did, Ed sacrificed his arm to retrieve Al’s soul, bonding it to a suit of armor. They then swore that they were going to restore each other’s bodies, willing to commit the taboo again as long as they had the Philosopher’s Stone, which could bypass alchemy’s Law of Equivalent Exchange.

There’s also Kanzaki. And this is major spoilers for Ryuki, if for some reason, you’ve managed not to be spoiled by my reviews for it already. As a teenager, his younger sister, Yui, died from neglect. In a moment of desperation, he struck a deal where his sister would live off the lifeforce of her Mirror World reflection until she turned twenty. So for the next several years, he dedicated his life to researching the Mirror World until he found that there was a power within it that could create one reality-warping wish. But it required thirteen people to fight and die inside the Mirror World to do so. So he created the Kamen Riders and set up a Rider War, manipulating their lives so that they’d have a wish they’d want to fight for, and on top of that, he had the Mirror Monsters attacking and eating innocent people.

The similarities are obvious, but do you notice the differences yet? No? Well, here it is: Ed wants to avoid the whole messy Equivalent Exchange issue, where Kanzaki is willing to sacrifice thirteen people to get his wish. When Ed learns that the Philosopher’s Stone is made up of countless souls, he and Al are torn. They don’t want to sacrifice anyone else for their wish. Kanzaki is perfectly willing to. The only reason he stops is because he realizes that Yui doesn’t want him to make that sacrifice for her.

Now, do you see the parallel to Charmcaster? In Linkara’s review of Power Rangers Time Force, he brought up the difference between a sympathetic character and a sympathetic backstory. A sympathetic character is someone you feel for, you watch them go through hell, and you understand why they’re doing this. A sympathetic backstory is a reason you feel for them. A sympathetic backstory does not justify a character’s actions. Those actions are what make a character sympathetic or not. What Ed’s doing is obvious from the start. Why he wants to do it, why he feels torn, why he feels like he can’t do it. Kanzaki—and by extension, Charmcaster—isn’t. They don’t show remorse for their actions, and they keep doing horrible things without a single thought for anybody else. And then they’re completely blindsided when it backfires on them. Ed would understand perfectly if Al told him not to save him. It’d hurt like hell, but he’d understand. Kanzaki didn’t. And Charmcaster didn’t. She still doesn’t. Gwen tries to argue that Charmcaster had a goal in life that she was trying to obtain and now she’s lost it. Ben and Kevin argue that it doesn’t justify a damn thing she did. She feels no remorse when they came specifically to save her. They were just souls in the Philosopher’s Stone or Kamen Riders in the Rider War as far as she cared.

So yes, you can feel bad for her, the way Gwen does. But does that justify her? Hell no.

“The Enemy of My Frenemy” was written by David McDermott. Thank you to Kapaychan for providing the episode.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-16 09:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alanddizzy.livejournal.com
Out of curiosity how many villains have been able to so easily dispatch all three of our heroes so quickly?

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-16 04:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
Not sure, but that doesn't mean they're well-written. Phobos could wipe the floor with them, and he's a terrible villain.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-16 11:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alanddizzy.livejournal.com
Oh I'd never confuse one with the other. I was just curious because I couldn't remember when they'd been thrashed so quick.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-17 01:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
There's a time when I would have remembered, but my brain right now is stuck on "uchuu...kitaaaaa!"

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-16 04:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] galistar07.livejournal.com
Took me a while to find this episode online since I accidentally missed its airing on television last week.

I actually enjoy this episode but yes, I thought 600,000 souls in exchange for one was a bit of an overkill. I've read CLAMP's xxxHoLic and the charactr Yuuko always stress that the price must be equal to the worth of the payment. No more and no less or else bad things will fall on both the customer and the shop owner. But then again, she also said that you should never bring back people from the dead...

You're right that I do feel a little bit sorry for Charmcaster, but yes, her action doesn't justify her and whatnot.

And this episode does make me wonder if Charmcaster is even strong enough to take on Verdona or Sunny in their full Annodite forms since she was able to wipe all three of our heroes in this episode.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-16 05:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
It was okay. I'm not horribly attached to the original series villains, and I honestly think that "Where The Magic Happens" was better at giving Charmcaster some sympathetic qualities, where this one ran roughshod over them.

I feel like I want to feel sorry for her, which isn't the same thing as actually feeling sorry. She doesn't show remorse for her actions, she doesn't understand why it's wrong, and the ends of her motivation really fail to justify the means.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-16 09:40 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
you guys make it sound like a bad thing that we don't sympathize with her :) that's because we weren't supposed to and that was the intention, hence the word empty and just because Fullmetal Alchemist used the idea of equivalent exchange doesn't mean it didn't exist before. I'm really sick of the comparison considering there are tons of sources for the ideas of alchemy.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-17 01:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
And is it a good thing? They spent a whole previous episode taking her from simply wanting power and wanting to defeat/kill/etc. Gwen, and gave her the motivation to save her home dimension and showed her grief over her father's death. Great. Now they have her kill 600,000 people to save him and fail to understand why it's a bad thing. That's a step backwards in development. Forgive me if I'd like a little consistency.

Also, in my reviews, I'm going to draw comparisons: to Power Rangers, Kamen Rider, Stargate, Justice League, and pretty much anything else I've ever watched or read in my life. And yes, that includes Fullmetal Alchemist, one of the last anime I saw and the one I loved the most. I thought maybe it would make a nice change from the prerequisite Kamen Rider references I was already making. And Stargate. If you don't like it? Sorry. But I'm not going to change my references just because I happen to like something that you don't.
Edited Date: 2012-02-17 01:43 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2013-12-30 11:07 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] trinariffic
that's because we weren't supposed to and that was the intention, hence the word empty

Which explains why Gwen said it so sympathetically. Wait...

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-17 02:15 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Too be perfectly honest, comparisons to other shows bore at times, especially if the creators themselves probably did actual research when making the episodes, not just watch other shows. Did I ever say to change your reviews to fit me??? A character regression is just as fascinating as a character progression ( Death note?? Batman's foe Two face anyone??) I didn't feel killing 600,000 souls for one life was too far fetched an idea, it's basically bending the rules of life and death. Why, should Charmcaster feel sorry?? should she learn the corny moral of the day??
Not saying you should agree with me but that's how I see's it

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-17 02:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
And I draw just as many comparisons to psychology. Just because somebody's put forth the research doesn't mean that you can't go, "Hey, this sounds like something else I've seen." That's the entire point of literary analysis. You come into my journal, look at my reviews, and tell me that you are "sick of the comparison" because I apparently reference Fullmetal Alchemist as opposed to, say, The Immortal Life of Nicholas Flamel (for the record, I didn't particularly care for the book series). That's like walking into my house, seeing my nerdy collection of action figures, and telling me that you're sick of seeing this particular series that I'm displaying in all my nerd glory.

And so I'm not allowed to dislike something? I'm perfectly fine disagreeing with someone, but I don't care for someone just writing me off because I make a reference to Fandom X or because I dislike something. I've been told that if I don't like the series, to stop watching it. I have yet to actually listen to this reasonable advice because I'm hoping for something I loved to return to me. If my reviews are so disagreeable, why do you read them? What is drawing you to them?

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-29 06:37 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I extremely HATED this episode. I loved the character development Charmcaster received in "Where the Magic Happens", and seeing it undone in such a horribly written manner was devastating.

Still, this whole damn season of UA has a track record of being horrible, so I guess I shouldn't have been surprised.

Personally, I still consider Charmcaster a sympathetic character.....because being screwed around like this by the show writers garners my sympathies.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 12:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
Well said. I tip my metaphorical hat to you.

I would have been able to stomach the whole sympathetic backstory vs. sympathetic character conflict if they hadn't shown in her previous episode that she was capable of being a perfectly sympathetic character. How do you go from her near-friendship with Gwen to this? You can't do it. It's not even a matter of a friendly enemy--they hugged and held hands and squeed together! Friendly enemies do not do that!

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 12:36 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Exactly!

The worst part is that the episode doesn't even TRY to explain why Charmcaster is suddenly acting so differently. Charmcaster doesn't say anything, Gwen doesn't ask anything, nothing is explained. There are theories about why she changed being speculated (stuff about "The Chaos" or the Alpha Rune or Diagon, etc.) but no matter what may be true, none of this is in the episode. She's just a sudden genocidal maniac who doesn't care about Gwen and the people of her realm because......because!

And I have to call bullshit on ressurecting Spellbinder being "her life's motivation". No....just no. None of her previous appearances make ANY sort of sense if bringing her daddy back was her driving motive all along. At least becoming powerful enough to liberate Ledgerdomain made sense with what came before, as gaining power was always her objective. But human ressurection? Whaaaaaa!?

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 12:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
Part of what really hurts it is that this motivation was given for her so late in the game. It's impossible to become sympathetic to that when we don't know it's her "true goal." And again, nothing she did was in line with that being her goal.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 01:38 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
*nods* All in all, I'm thinking about just ignoring this whole season. To me, "Ultimate Alien" ended with "Absolute Power". No character would have to suffer through such assasination that way.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-04-02 01:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
I'm a little more generous and willing to leave the cutoff point at "Moonstruck." If only because I'm a sucker for Max's backstory. And I've got to admit that I liked "Solitary Alignment" too. Something about me and doomed love stories.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-04-19 05:22 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
''And Charmcaster didn’t. She still doesn’t.''

Er, I disagree, I think when her father told her she'd become worse than Adwaitya, she DID realize how wrong she was (she started crying because of it), and her father leaving to go back to the dead because of what she did made her realize it even more. Where did it indicate she hadn't learned her lesson?

''Gwen tries to argue that Charmcaster had a goal in life that she was trying to obtain and now she’s lost it. Ben and Kevin argue that it doesn’t justify a damn thing she did.''

Actually, only Ben argued that. Kevin was clearly empahizing with Charmcaster and knew how she felt. He may not feel she was justified, but he's not unforgiving like Ben is because, frankly, he's in position to be so.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-04-19 05:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
Where did it indicate she did learn her lesson? She cried when her father left. Did she express any regret for what she'd done? That 600,000 people died, even momentarily, because of her actions? She didn't understand, and that's very different.

Calling Ben "unforgiving"--he's justified there. He and 599,999 other people died because Charmcaster thought their lives didn't mean as much as her father. They would all have stayed dead had Spellbinder not been horrified at what happened and decided to go back on the deal. If Ben can't forgive Charmcaster for that, then I really can't blame him.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-04-19 07:55 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
She didn't cry when he left, she started crying when he was still there and calling her out on what she did, saying she'd become a worse tyrant than Adwaitya. When her own FATHER is telling her what she did is wrong, why wouldn't she listen and understand? Where did it indicate she DIDN'T?

I'm not saying he's unjustified or that Charmcaster was in what she did, but you have to understand where she's coming from. Most of the "lives she thought didn't mean as much as father" had started a war and begun killing each other once she deposed Adwaitya. That combined with the looooong time Charmcaster's been sealed in Ledgedomain, for all she knows ABANDONED by Gwen and co., why WOULDN'T she feel resentful toward all of them and (wrongly, mind you) feel that they deserve to die for the sake of getting back the only person who loves her?

That Ben can't feel any sympathy for her whatsoever, IMO, means he hasn't matured at all from the narrow-mindedness he displayed when he felt killing Kevin was the only option.

Staff writer Geoff Thorne has gone on record to state that Charmcaster isn't evil and is supposed to be sympathetic ("I'm sorry. Were you watching the same episode as me? I saw a girl who was broken-hearted, who had done terrible things for the chance to save the father she loved only to have them come to nothing. Gwen says she has nothing now, she's empty. In what way does "empty" mean "evil?"")

If the writer of this episode (David McDermott) somehow didn't get this across, then that's his problem, not Charmcaster's. Charmcaster was not justified in what she did, but there were sympathetic reasons behind it, and she's likely going to try to get better from now on.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-04-20 01:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
I don't have the benefit of following all the series writers. I'm watching it more casually, without hunting down every shred of information about it. So Geoff Thorne's comments? Unless I can see it in the episode itself, it's not going to have a whole lot of impact on me.

Charmcaster cried when her father yelled at her. That still does not mean it's an expression of guilt. It's an expression of shame, which is different. Guilt is when you recognize your own wrongdoings. Shame is when someone else recognizes it, and you feel bad because of it. And she was never abandoned by Gwen and the others. She locked the door behind them. That's a major difference. She made the choice herself not to let them help her.

And yes, if there is a problem with the writer, then there's a problem with the character. If the writer can't get it across, then that completely changes the interpretation of the character.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-04-20 01:54 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Don't you think that guilt would naturally follow shame? That Charmcaster would realize her father is right? That she no longer has the Alpha Rune next episode, is no longer trying to ressurect her father or actively do any evil, suggests she HAS learned better.

First off, no, it was stated that the door locked because of no Alpha Rune. Charmcaster didn't do a thing to lock it; she just chose not to go with Ben and the others. And they were NOT going to help her at the moment to start with, Ben said stopping Aggregor came first and THEN they'd help her, but Charmcaster knew that'd be impossible since the door would be sealed shut behind them when they left to pursue Aggregor. She let them go save the universe while she stayed to fight for her realm alone. And the looooooong time she's stayed there (time passes differntly there) and frusturation she endured would naturally warp her against them and make her think they abandoned her by going after Aggregor rather than helping her. It's not right, it's not logical....but it's understandable given the circumstances.

Tell me, how did you like and accept Kevin for so long? Until episode 10 of "Ultimate Alien", we NEVER got any sort of explanation or justification for why he behaved the way he did in the original series, and he rarely showed anything in the way of remorse for it...in fact, he frequently STILL engaged in criminal acts. For a long time, the reason he was a good guy at all was never gotten across. Yet you accept that he's good easily.

Bottom line: this cut-and-dry "Charmcaster is pure evil" sentiment makes little sense and is against the wishes of the writers. Some things aren't that simple, sometimes genuinely sympathetic characters can and will do horrible things like Charmcaster did, and sometimes do so with little remorse at the time. You're a "Kingdom Hearts" fan, right? Tell me, when he was actually doing them, did Riku have ANY qualms about his acts of evil, like trying to kill his best friend? No. Is he ultimately a sympathetic character? Yes. Same with Charmcaster, and I have little doubt her redemption will unfold in "Omniverse".

(no subject)

Date: 2012-04-20 02:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akino-ame.livejournal.com
What could have happened is not the same as what did happen. And when Spellbinder tells Charmcaster that he would rather die than let her resurrect him that way? Well, kind of no point in continuing it, is there? I never said she was pure evil, but I do not in any way think she is justified in her actions, nor do I find her particularly sympathetic.

As for Kevin, I did have my issues with him. I even point it out in my endpoint analysis for AF, that we don't get any backstory for him until the very end. But the difference is that he stuck around, he developed enough personality traits that were endearing, and he was actively trying to redeem himself.

It's late, I'm tired, and quite honestly, I'm done with this argument. I don't want this to devolve into a shouting match, and I'd just be happy to agree to disagree.

Please ignore obvious RP account stuff

Date: 2013-12-29 05:40 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] trinariffic
...OK, I've been reading your reviews since I found this reconstructed directory, and I've enjoyed them...until now, as I feel you completely missed the point here. Charmcaster was NEVER meant to be justified in what she did, that was never the intent of the episode. But she WAS meant to be sympathetic, and a display in moral grayness, and much of what you say here is flat-out wrong.

Especially glaring is your Linkara reference, which falls flat. He NEVER said "actions make a character sympathetic". He even said in regards to Ransik "This isn't Magneto we're talking about here". He's saying Magneto is sympathetic, and Magneto has done much, MUCH worse than Ransik.

What Linkara meant is that a sympathetic backstory doesn't make a villain sympathetic, it's their MOTIVATIONS that do, even if they take wrong actions in pursuing it. Ransik was just an anarchist and criminal, but Magneto was fighting for the rights of an oppressed people. This doesn't justify his actions, but it makes him sympathetic.

Likewise, Charmcaster was genuinely trying to free her world...and when she did, everyone went to war and started fighting over power. Can you not see how that would make her resentful toward those she sacrificed? You say she "does horrible things without a single thought for anyone else", forgetting entirely that she didn't pull this until after the time of chaos where those "anyone elses" ALSO did horrible things without a second thought all in the pursuit of what they wanted.

And her other motive was to resurrect someone she dearly loved...again, a very clearly sympathetic motive. It doesn't justify her actions, but claiming those actions make her not a sympathetic character is dead wrong. She's like Magneto here, not like Ransik.

"A character you feel for, watch go through Hell, and understand why they're doing this" describes Charmcaster to a TEE. The majority of Ben 10 fans do feel for her, they do watch her go through Hell before and after this, and they do understand why she does what she does because they can understand that loving your father and being stuck somewhere where nobody else loves you, even after you freed their enslaved asses, would drive her to very extreme and evil lengths to find her happiness. It doesn't make her a monster, it doesn't make her unsympathetic, it makes her a lost and lonely girl who has done the wrong things but still has HOPE (yeah, that name was chosen for a reason) to get better.

She DID feel remorse for her actions. I saw you arguing against that above and have to call bull. "No point in continuing?" If she wasn't remorseful, she would have just kept searching for another way to bring her father back that wouldn't cost any lives and make him upset at her, not because taking lives was wrong but because it didn't get her what she wanted. Instead, she gives up the Alpha Rune that forces servitude to her (notice that she's not wearing it next episode) and is to actually rule Ledgerdomain the right way, even when she finds the job boring she's doing it to make up for what she did to the realm's denizens before.

And lastly, "Ben and Kevin argue..." NO. This wasn't a sexist "boys against girls and the boys are right" case. Kevin was on Gwen's side: he agreed that Charmcaster WAS sympathetic. It didn't justify anything, true, but Gwen wasn't arguing that and neither was the episode. She was arguing that, even after her unjustifiable actions, Charmcaster is deserving of pity, and Kevin agreed because he could empathize. The point of the episode was that sometime people who do terrible things do it for human and sympathetic reasons, and Kevin can understand that better than anyone else since he has an even longer history of it than Charmcaster. Only Ben doesn't sympathize with her, and if you think the guy constantly made to be a foolish jackass this entire series is meant to be the correct one here, then I don't know what to say.

Look, I'm sorry if this sounded ranty, but Charmcaster was one of the late Dwayne McDuffie's favorite characters due to her moral nuance and her character arc, and you grossly misinterpreting and misrepresenting it makes me have alot of negative feels. Nobody was ever trying to say she was right and justified in what she did. But she is sympathetic and she is a developing, redeemable character, so painting her as just a remorseless monster is about the biggest slap in the face to Dwayne's intent as possible.
(deleted comment)
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(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2013-12-31 03:23 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] trinariffic
Charmcaster's story arc was not as extensively portrayed. She had fewer episodes, and from what I saw? I didn't get enough to really feel for her.

Which, again, I find baffling given how you feel for Kevin. I don't care how few episodes she's had compared to how much he's had: their situations are essentially the same, and he crossed the exact same line Charmcaster did in this episode at age 11. He came back from it, and you felt for him despite much stumbling (you said to the anon above me "he was actively trying to redeem himself", which is ignoring the many times he regressed into criminal or even evil behavior like in "Simple"). For you to deem a Charmcaster unsympathetic and her arc a failure just because of fewer appearances seems shallow, and to rage-quit on liking her for one setback in her turn to good despite sticking through Kevin's multiple setbacks. If you feel for

Here is a very well-done essay from a Kevin fan about him and Charmcaster, and how neither fans nor show should ever overlook how they're in the same frigging boat: http://kariachi.tumblr.com/post/64772071195/thinky-thoughts-hope-and-kevin If you feel for Kevin, just apply those feels to Charmcaster and boom, you feel for her situation too.

And it is absolutely possible that it's McDermott's script, just as it's absolutely possible that it's Man of Action's development early on.

Man of Action had nothing to do with Charmcaster's backstory, motives and character arc, just like they had nothing to do with Kevin's. They established her character, that was it. Nothing they did would affect this particular episode in any way, nor would it affect Charmcaster's lack of appearances since she appeared the most in their series (her lack of appearances in the other shows is easily explained: Charmcaster and all the magic stuff doesn't sell toys.)

Charmcaster's was one of the hardest to write, and I did my best to try to work with the canon to see what I could do. I can write someone as sympathetic even if I can't believe it myself. I'm capable of setting my biases aside.

I think you did very well with her up until the very end. Putting aside what I and the anon above have both argued, (that Charmcaster DID understand what she did wrong and why her father was upset), your ending is the exact opposite of what her arc is supposed to be about. It's literally about Hope, about the hope of being able to change and lead a good life, and her being the hope for her realm and all it's magic. This episode was meant to be the turning point, when she was first called Hope, when all that she worked for as Charmcaster came to naught, and when her father bluntly reminded her of the life she's meant to live. "Couples Retreat" and her forthcoming Omniverse episodes are about her journey to becoming Hope again, the opposite of what you wrote her deciding.

I would have kept in mind that every appearance of the character could very well be the last appearance, so I wouldn't take any chances in trying to get my point across, especially taking into account that there are 6-11 year old children watching this, and they're not going to be able to see the bigger picture nearly as well as adult viewers--and yes, I work with children that age range, and I know very well how the major age group (the youngest) is going to miss the bigger picture.

First off, they rushed Kevin's turn to good at the start of AF and everyone complained. They took chances with a Charmcaster and didn't have her turn face completely in just one episodes as a result. And I know, she's not a main character like Kevin, yadayadayada, but I see where they're coming from here. And no way would Dwayne think this or "Couples Retreat" would be her last appearance, he was involved in the planning for Omniverse so he knew full well a new series was coming, and even though he didn't end up working on it, the new story editors are his widow and the man who wrote "Where the Magic Happens", so Charmcaster was always in good hands.

Second, I've also heard of children that age from a friend of mine who is far more involved in the Ben 10 fandom than I am, children who DID see the bigger picture and felt sorry for Charmcaster because they knew having your father killed at a young age and being raised by an uncle who teaches you evil would mess anyone up. For that matter, when I was a 6-11 year old kid, I was exposed to plenty of morally nuanced villains who I felt sorry for even when knowing they're wrong. I was sad for the villain watching episodes like "Heart of Ice" from Batman:TAS, so I think the majority of kids will feel sad for the villain watching this.

What's done is done, and there's no undoing it. And in my honest opinion, Charmcaster's development was a miss--one among a very long line of hits

Bull on the first part. I again point to the fact that Charmcaster's arc is still ongoing, just because you stopped watching Ben 10 doesn't mean it's over. The problems you have with her development can be fixed. And I again remind you that (as you yourself admitted) Kevin was a mess for most of Alien Force, so by your logic, there was no undoing that and his development was also a miss. But that's not how you think of Kevin and his arc, nor do I, nor do many others.

Also, a very long line of hits? Because you didn't seem upset at her development until this particular episode, which judging from your reviews of the rest of the season is in a long line of misses.

And while you're entitled to your opinion, be aware that it's a minority one, since Charmcaster is as much a fan favorite as she was a favorite of Dwayne's and her continuing development is awaited by many, meaning the development she already received must have done something right to hook people. In my opinion, that she's one of the extremely few characters in this franchise outside of Kevin who DOES have a continuing, developing arc, not to mention true moral nuance period, makes it a hit. So people disagreeing with your view of this matter isn't something out of the ordinary.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2013-12-31 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] trinariffic
Kevin's story arc was very short in the original, yes. But there was follow-up, which is the entire point I've been trying to make here. Kevin is a regular character in the McDuffie era

And Charmcaster will have follow-up too. She may not be a regular, sadly enough, but her arc goes on. Heck, it already did with "Couples Retreat", which had her trying to be a rightful ruler to her realm and horrified over Darkstar's rantings of wanting to take over Earth. And she refuses to join him in this when he offers it to her, even though she has feelings for him. That's development: she shows concern for other people and matters beyond herself and her own desires. Yet you never really spoke of this in your review of that episode.

I notice that you were never so hard on her character before this episode, only when this episode happened, but I don't get why. Don't you want Charmcaster to be a complex character with a redemption arc? Because for that to happen, she needs something worth redeeming herself for. As I listed before, Charmcaster never really did anything substantially evil, she just tried to hurt/kill the heroes and always failed with no lasting damage done. Every villain has done that. Kevin, meanwhile, tried to kill hundreds of innocent people in his debut, and he actually murdered and created lasting damage to people in his three subsequent villainous outings.

You say Charmcaster's development is a "miss" due to this episode, but the truth is she HAD to cross such a serious evil line like this or else there's no weight to a redemption arc. IMO, it's one thing being done with her better than with Kevin. We know and understand where she's coming from when she crosses the line, whereas we waited until "Vendetta" and the first season of UA to learn where Kevin was coming from in his line-crossing: we got him crossing the line and then trying to make up for it, but the reason why he did what he's redeeming himself for came way too late in the game.

There is much more room to make up for writing mistakes in Kevin's case and maintain him as a sympathetic character than there is for a character who appeared in 12 out of almost 200 episodes.

OK, so literally if nothing in "Enemy of My Frenemy" changed, but Charmcaster was a regular character who appeared frequently, would your view on her and the writing of her changed?

But in that moment, at that pivotal moment where she kills 600,000 people to bring back her father, I did not have the material to feel sympathy for her. There was not enough to build to that.

But you did have the material. You just chose to ignore it. You had her backstory and her love for her father, you had the information about the war-filled Time of Chaos that corrupted everyone in Ledgerdomain that would have corrupted her too and understandably embittered her toward the other denizens of the realm (again, this is something you don't seem to talk about even though it's a BIG thing ) and you had the basic knowledge that she's someone who used to be innocent but is now pushed over the moral line due to inner pain just like Kevin was. If you know someone is just like Kevin, you should know that's appropriate build-up to her making the wrong choice. You're letting the wrongness of the action overrule all else, and honestly, I don't get it, especially when Spellbinder quite literally gave Hope a second chance by pushing the Reset Button on the action. Yes, she didn't revive them herself, but still, she's redeemable now.

when somebody says "There's something wrong with this writing," then that needs to be examined. Just as every criticism of Kevin's development or Ben's or Gwen's. And I have made, point for point, my case on why I do not believe this worked, and no amount of love I had for the series or love I still have for the writing staff can change that.

I understand and agree, but there are people who will examine the examination and try to make, point for point, why it's flawed. And the main flaws I've found are:

1. Your ignoring of the Time of Chaos' effect on Charmcaster
2. Your ignoring of her similarities to Kevin and why that makes this event not so surprising or unsympathetic
3. Your blatant incorrect statement that Kevin argued against sympathizing with Charmcaster when literally all he did in that scene is share Gwen's grim facial expression and make a remark amounting to "I feel her pain."
4. Your denial that she feels remorse for what she did
5. Your ignoring of her change of behavior in "Couples Retreat" that does show that she feels remorse and is trying to better herself

(PS: What did you think of the essay I linked to you? Agree? Disagree?)


Edited Date: 2013-12-31 10:59 pm (UTC)

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2014-01-01 04:39 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] trinariffic
I'm not ignoring a comparison to Kevin. I'm shooting it down. Because Kevin is a regular character throughout those two seasons, where Charmcaster has little airtime. I'm fine if we both walk away from this discussion without ever convincing the other of our points of view. But you have to understand that there is a huge difference between building sympathy across 100 episodes for a character's actions and building sympathy across 12 episodes for a character's actions.

But I like discussion about opposing viewpoints! You learn alot from it, even if nobody is convinced of any points. : )

OK, so all the valid in-universe similarities between them are moot because of this one difference in status? I and other fans don't care how much airtime she has in comparison to Kevin: the sympathy angle is not a huge difference because their cases are so damn similar. Any sympathy built toward Kevin across 100 episodes is easily transferable to Charmcaster because she's in the same boat with only a few differences to distinguish them and their connection to their rivals.

Also, it's really unfair to critique Charmcaster not being a regular because she never had a chance at becoming one. You want to know why Kevin became a regular even though similar fan favorite Charmcaster did not? Because Charmcaster is:

A. Magic

B. A girl

And the show is run by the CN executives, not the writers. And according to them, magic and female characters don't get ratings and toy sales: to them, boys are the target audience and they want more male characters and more aliens / sic-fi. That's why Kevin became a regular, Gwen's magic became alien-based, and Charmcaster gets screwed out of appearances even though McDuffie and most of the writers liked her. Executive meddling and sexism.

That's why I will always stand that the series should have been an ensemble show. Not just Ben, Gwen and Kevin, but a real team: the team they gathered in "War of the Worlds" full-time (minus Darkstar), allowing additions along the way, including female characters like Eunice and, indeed, Charmcaster. But as you yourself said, "what's done is done."

600,000 people. That's a small country's worth of people, gone. And not just any people--her people. Not everyone participated in the war. There were just as likely as many innocents. There were people who came originally to help her, even though they had once called her an enemy. There was someone who was beginning to think of her as a friend. All killed.

First off, the vast majority save for Ben, Gwen and Kevin were creatures, not exactly "people". It was established that all humans save for Hex and Charmcaster were killed by Adwaitya. It would be very easy for a corrupted, embittered Charmcaster to devalue their lives based on that, even though this is wrong since they are clearly sentient. She also could have devalued their lives under the "1 death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" law. She loves her father, she doesn't love or know most of these 600,000 beings, so heck yeah she'd trade them for him.

Second, she never asked for help. She let them go before under the assumption she'd never see them again after the door closed. They had their battle to fight which they clearly valued more than her's, and she let them go fight it. She kept the door open long enough for them to get out. She was prepared to fight alone. And after years and years and YEARS of fighting alone, and finally getting to the point of victory, these guys come back to "help" her and she knows they'll inevitably try to stop her after she'd come so far. So yeah, she killed them. Again, it's bad, it's wrong, but it's understandable and that's why people sympathize with her.

Third, I repeat: years and years and YEARS due to Ledgerdomain's time stream. That's more than enough time of pain and misery for her good feelings toward Gwen to become forgotten, even if Gwen hasn't forgotten her since it's been shorter time on Earth.

And before you even make the argument, what would my reaction be had it been Kevin, my favorite character? My response would have been to scream, "WHAT THE FUCK?!", flip out, spend a day in an incoherent rage, write an extremely nasty review, and then swear off the show altogether.

So you wouldn't be interested in seeing him redeem himself for it afterward at all?

This is an extremely hard crime to walk away from. You can't just say, "I'm sorry." You can't just go to nicer behavior after. It takes much more time to get beyond this

And that's her arc. Spending a long time moving beyond it and becoming HOPE once more, hope for herself and for the future. Going to nicer behavior is only a first step. That you criticize the episode for starting such an arc and judge the character so harshly for the crime putting the arc in motion is ridiculous.

Because in the episodes leading up to that, I saw a young woman who might have been able to change sides. She was antagonistic, yes. She was a criminal, yes. But she wouldn't have resorted to nigh-genocide, at least as far as I knew at that point. And once you play that card, there's no going back. You have to deal with it. And they failed to adequately deal with it.

But again, they wanted a redemption arc like Kevin's for her, and being someone unwilling to resort to nigh-genocide like he was (nigh-genocide that, by the way, wasn't reversed) wouldn't make it work, hence this episode.

She got told off by her father. She felt awful, yes. But they never addressed her remorse. Sure, she won't do it again. But the reason why comes off as "Because my father wouldn't want that," rather than "Because it's wrong." And that is why I cannot find her sympathetic and why this argument is falling on deaf ears.

If she knows her father wouldn't want it, then she knows it's wrong. Period. She knows damn well what a good man her father was, she worships him like a saint, and she knows that if he says it's wrong, then it's wrong. Is it so hard for you to connect the dots here? Does Charmcaster have to lose all subtlety and deliver a "mass murder is wrong" speech?

The episode's ending and especially "Couples Retreat" is working off of Show, Don't Tell The writers assumed the audience would know that Charmcaster realizes how wrong she's been because her father, whom she holds as a paragon of virtue, said so. Her father's words about her crime making her worse than Adwaitya got through to her and she's trying to change not just for her father but for herself, so that she won't be like Adwaitya. They also assumed that audiences would note the similarities to Kevin based on his last line, and know where Charmcaster is headed now. It may take slow and she may still do some bad things, but that's the same as Kevin still committing felonies even after Q'arell got through to him, or even regressing to crime at times after joining Ben and Gwen.

Basically, what this amounts to is that most fans are able to get around Charmcaster's lack of appearances and connect the dots that are presented in said appearance and in the deliberate parallels to Kevin, and they see the full picture of Charmcaster's character and arc. This is what McDuffie and the writers intended, because they couldn't do the same with her as they did with Kevin due to the executive reasons listed above. If you can't do that even now, even though you are capable of it as "To the 10th Power" shows, I don't know what more to say.
From: [personal profile] trinariffic
Nerissa? But I felt sympathetic toward her too, although in a different sense than Charmcaster because unlike her, Nerissa was irredeemable, she was "too far gone" as you put it, and it was portrayed as just such a PITY, that she can never be free of her delusions and that her best happiness is eternity in a Lotus Eater Machine. Her actions are abhorrent, her defeat well-deserved...but even so, the sympathy (or at least pity, maybe that's a better word than sympathy here) factor doesn't really go away. At least not for me.

Except you forget that Charmcaster, in all those appearances, walked a line between good and evil. Most of her evil was strictly kept against the heroes, which is just a villain doing their job. Innocent people being hurt and killed was something she usually avoided, and she did good things even if for selfish motives.

Tough Luck: Only endangered innocents when Hex commanded it, saved the Tennysons (only to get the Keystone from Gwen, but still saved them nonetheless), and never expressed interest in ruling the world with the power of Bezel like Hex did, she just wanted it so that she could be personally powerful.

A Change of Face: Helped bring two thieves to justice out of her own self-interest, and more importantly never killed or even attempted to kill anyone in the episode, not even the heroes, despite multiple opportunities.

Ben 10 vs. the Negative 10: Kept the fight strictly against the Tennysons, mainly Gwen...and even then, helped her blast Rojo away when Rojo attempted to interfere with their magic battle.

In Charm's Way: Saved a little boy's life and again kept her villainy strictly against the heroes.

Time Heals: Alternate Future, it doesn't count any more than Kevin 11,000 does for Kevin.

Hit 'Em Where They Live: Solely wanted revenge on Gwen, and unlike Vulcanus, expressed doubt that working for Zombozo and his "target their loved ones" plan was right, saying she probably should have just gone and sought revenge on her own.

So in these episodes, she always shows a sympathetic or at least not-so-evil side. In this episode, she finally crossed over the line into evil, but the end of it and the following episode shows that her father got through to her and she's stepped back onto the line again. So I don't know where "we don't see much from Charmcaster" is coming from, since there's enough of her in each appearance to form a consistent character to base an arc around. And that character arc is clear to me: a girl walking the line between good and evil while seeking what she wants until she goes over to the evil side completely and achieves it, but it backfires and forces her back onto the line in search of a new purpose, one that will ultimately bring her to the good side.

Huh? The Alpha Rune was on her neck all throughout this episode, it was what she was using to have total control over everyone in her realm and to easily kill Gwen when she went Anodite. Paradox obviously returned it to it's rightful place and she claimed it. In "Couples Retreat", she's not wearing and using it anymore. And again, seeing as it allows her total control, that's a pretty large indicator that there has been a change in her beliefs and behavior.

I'm not saying you're sexist, I'm saying the scene would be sexist if a female character was presented as foolishly emotional and dead wrong on a matter while the logical males knew better, as you suggest was the case in your review.

And where do you get that Kevin "didn't sympathize completely"? His ONLY line in that entire scene spoke volumes about how he does, probably MORE than Gwen does. It was far more than just "shades" of sympathy, it was full-blown empathy. He and Charmcaster are exactly the same: they have both crossed the line into evil out of the pain of loss, both having it amount to nothing in the end. And don't bring up the Osmosian excuse, as Kevin deliberately took energy like a drug which drove him psycho, and even after being restored to sanity he still lived the life of a criminal until Alien Force began. How can you think Kevin could possibly blame a Charmcaster for doing something he'd have do too just a few years ago, before he had any good influences?

Also, Ben would come off better if he wasn't being so hypocritical. He may not aim to kill people, but if someone's talking about someone who "shows little concern for people's' lives", it'd best not be Mr. Egomaniac Ben Tennyson.

Kevin is part of the MAIN CAST, of course he got more time, dedication and focus than Charmcaster. And even then, the mess that he was took until UA: Season 1 to get fully cleaned up. If you could wait that long and not throw stones at him and his journey, which included lots of haphazard diverging*, then why not do the same for Charmcaster, whose journey is also still ongoing (I know you don't watch it, but apparently even Omniverse is continuing it. She only has 3 appearances, none of them having aired yet, but spoilers/hints show that she's the morally-gray foil to other villains each time: Ghostfreak, Hex, and Adwaitya respectively.)

*Remember the time he got into war-profiteering and showed absolutely no remorse for it? Why do you not consider that or many other bad turns of his "the point where a character stops being sympathetic"?

Even with a year waiting, you seem to have ignored or glossed over things like the Time of Chaos brought up in the episode, which explains perfectly why Charmcaster would be driven to despair and cross the line to evil in order to bring back her father. And no matter how bad you thought the writing was, saying things like Charmcaster "keeps doing horrible things without a single thought to anyone else" are just factually wrong, as I just explained that in all her previous appearances, her actions weren't "horrible" on this scale and she DID think of others by keeping her agenda between her and the heroes (who, yes, she showed no remorse in killing here but again, Time of Chaos, it understandably broke her and corrupted her toward everyone, even the people who came to save her.)

I don't doubt your love and respect. I know McDuffie isn't above criticism and I have criticized him too. But demonizing his favorite character just doesn't sit right with me, especially when the majority of people do seem to see her as he did: a girl with a tragic past who has consistently walked the line between good and evil, crossed the line into evil just this once but has backtracked to the line and now lives with the HOPE (that's the meaning of the name) of becoming good as she was destined to be. It's a compelling character and a compelling arc, and even if you thought her divergence here was badly written, I still feel you're being needlessly hard on the character for it, and that it's very hypocritical coming from such a Kevin fan. I don't care if he's on the main cast and she's not. If you stuck by him and his arc despite badly written episodes for him and it, of which there were a few, then you can do the same for Charmcaster and not deem her a bad, unsympathetic character due to just ONE flub.

Lastly, how would YOU write it differently? And that's not a rhetorical question: you wrote a Charmcaster piece in your "To the 10th Power" that portrayed her as sympathetic even though you reference the events of this episode where you claim she isn't. If you were writing the episode, what would you do to improve it and make Charmcaster's arc more clear in your eyes?

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Akino Ame

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